Marriott Hotel on 15th & L Street
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36 comments:
any news to report LivingurbanSac? Any pics?
b
I think he has been preoccupied… any day now there should be a baby LivingInUrbanSac.
you guys need a new pic of
"John Saca on the dole"
or
"Saca panhandling downtown"
or
"Saca standing in line at Loaves and Fishes"
^ Your a moron... Let see here. The city is giving away $100 million and nearly every developer who is building something downtown has got they’re hand out, even the downtown mall. If the government was giving away money and you qualified would you try to get your hand in there, hell yeah!!!
You would be a moron not to.
yeah, you bet, "Urban Sophistication" in Sacramento...why living downtown is great, mixing with the Nimrods and Imbeciles who work for the State is a very stimulating and exciting (hint, hint, hint, there ain't no Private Enterprise downtown and is the reason Portland, Seattle and SF are cool and Sac is the pits)...that's why they're going to put a Walmart/Target in Jerde's Mall....LOL....
Before Saca is done (which appears a little iffy) he's going to come to you for a "little" loan...
I guess you haven't heard yet? Sac leads the way with in the race for the biggest "Housing Bubble"...see that's where clowns like Saca inflate, hype and speculate everything to the fifth moon of Saturn hoping that suckers (that's you) buy....
"Needs a few bucks for the fixins in the Hotel"...Yeah, you bet...
If you and that "genius" Saca hadn't noticed, the San Diego Highrise Condo Market (and they are COOL) collapsed some time ago...but don't let the FACTS get in the way of Saca speculation and hype!
But hey, everybody is living on the Government Dole in Sacramento, why not Saca?
Sorry anonymous for calling you a moron. I just wish the local news would give a better perspective on what else is really going on.
Anonymous - I encourage healthy debate on all topics here and welcome you to keep coming back. BUT, inflammatory comments are not. I want to hear people of all points of view on this blog, but we need to keep them constructive.
I am assuming you are the writer of "anonymous" comments recently, if not, I apologize. Going forward though, all troll like comments will be deleted. Mike - Thanks for apologizing...I was going to include you in that as well :-)
Now back to the discussion with regard to the SD market, there is a HUGE difference that I think you are missing. Yes, the housing market has cooled, as it has here. The key difference is that urban condo housing in Sacramento is a very new concept and the demand is very much there. San Diego has been building this kind of housing for a decade. It's only a matter of time before you run out of buyers at that pace.
Sacramento only really just got started a couple years ago. I don't think we will see nearly the boom SD did for many reasons including a slowing housing market, but there will be a good amount built by the end of the decade.
The Sacramento housing market is almost entirely based on suburban housing. Yes, it has cooled and will continue to cool is the suburban track housing market. You can get the same track home in Elk Grove, Natomas, Roseville, Rocklin, Antelope, Woodland, Yuba, with the same WalMart and Applebees strip mall a mile from yoru housing. Some people are fine with that, and that's fine with me, some other want something different. The central is the only place in the region that you can get that "different" living style that some people want …and the supply of houses actually being built is still relativley small. With the surge of new restaurants and nightlife, people really enjoy being in the central city, which wasn’t the case until a hand full of years ago. Now if we can just get retail to catch up a little.
I remember when I told my dad I was selling my house in Natomas to move downtown, he was shocked. He grew up in Sac, but when he was younger, you just didn’t go downtown. Now that he has had a chance to walk around with me and see what has happen down here, he loves coming over to watch the game at one of the many waterholes and eateries I can walk to in 15 mins or less. The walk back is GREAT for killing the buzz..haha.. and not having to drive home.
From talking to many people who living in SD and went to school there, SD was in a MUCH worse condition that here. They benefit from being on the beach, but that was it at the time
I went to check out the 1801 L Street rents a while back to get an idea of where they were at. When I spoke to the sales lady she told me they were ~$2.00 a sqaure foot due to the market shifting up. The rents were going to be below $2, but since the St Anton project was able to get $2, they are going to charge $2. You can bet if the Anton project didn’t get $2, they would be less as well. There is a demand for this stuff.
While this type of city living isnt for everyone, in reality there are quite a few people that want that lifestyle. The key is how $$$ they are gong to be. There are only so many people in Sacramento that can afford and are willing to pay $600 - $700 a square foot, and interest rates stay low, which has been the case.
As for the subsidy for the hotel, Saca would be stupid to not ask for it, and the city would be stupid to not give it. The city (and taxpayers) makes a lot of money off of occupancy tax and sales tax from people staying at hotels. Those taxes help fill the city coffers for public needs.
I don’t see a problem with Saca looking to get a piece of the action he is creating off the hotel, esp when building hotels from scratch are generally not good investments for a developer. Realistically, the city makes all the money off the TOT and sales tax with no risk. When you think of reinvestment dollars, I don’t think there are very many better ways for the city to make its money back and a lot more down the road than hotels.
As I said, please come back to comment, but let’s try and keep the depate quality
the worst part of the housing bubble is the subsequent, anonymous imbeciles who now fancy themselves realestate market analysts. It's a lot like the tech bubble, where everyone and their grandma was a day-trading stock pro.
In about a year, anonymous will have moved on to another half-assed psuedo-entrepreneurial venture to compensate for his/her lack of any genuine interests or hobbies.
Here's to the future, anonymous.
Lack of urbanity in Sacramento and why quite a few folks are going upside down in Sacramento.
If you purchased a home within the last year in the Sacramento area, it is now worth 33% less than what you paid for it. Congratulations! However if you were wise like those Pot Growers in Elk Grove used one of those interest only no money down loans and loaded the application up with plenty of phony paper you can walk away and count your blessings.
Why Sacramento is not urbane? Troubling, that there are no truly urbane spaces in Sacramento besides in front of the Capitol and who in his right mind wants to go there? Portland has some mighty fine spaces including those great spaces designed by Lawrence Halprin as do Seattle and San Francisco. Portland and San Francisco regenerated themselves with approximately 20 year cycles, artists/art galleries/architects/graphic designers/ad agencies/attorneys/engineers/professional offices. It happened near the Ice House and then happened again in SOMA. Even Santa Barbara along State Street has a greater urban beat than anywhere in Sacramento.
So why is not Sacramento urbane? The State and mind numbing mediocrity that surrounds State Governance. The State casts a mundane pall on anything it touches, and sadly for Sacramento this means mediocre architects and urban planners. Who in the devil wants to hang around State workers?
True small enclaves of urbanism exist, Paragary’s Gardens on 28th? and the adjoining hangouts at the Monkey Bar/Bernardos and around Zocalos (food is TacoBell at 8 times the cost) but projects such as the Mega Monster East End Project create walls and ugliness that are hard to stomach.
What can Sacramento do? Little or nothing other than caging and chaining the State to the requirements of the City which probably is not going to happen. Angelides sure is not going to help since he and his buddy Calthorpe raped New Urbanism at Laguna West and then built a real fine suburban mess that was actually worse than the other suburban crap in Elk Grove.
Private Enterprise and Developers (Angelides/The Greeks) can be real schmucks, but it turns out the State is even worse.
A real conundrum as Russia is finding out.
Your comparison of real estate dropping from last year to this year is short sighted anonymous. As you know, real estate goes in cycles and the last time things went into a funk was in the early 90's. Man, I wish I had the means back then to pick up properties all over the region. Anyway, that was 13 to 15 years ago and prices have quadrupled since then.
If you’re a real estate flipper right now you’re screwed, but if you plan on staying where you’re at, you have nothing to worry about.
please include sac news review on your links
i like the ads
i also thrilled that a new target is coming to downtown
that way i don't push my cart all the way over under the freeway but now it easier going over target on K
i dont know why some dont like State. i get my check regular
sometime i get free coffee over on 19 at safway
maybe you see me on j at starbucks, i dressed in my prom dress and gloves
Lack of urbanity in sac
people have to care about their City,
When the State or some subidiary of the State tears up urban gardens built by the citizens and then builds condos or apartments to house a "somewhat" richer clientele...the City becomes POORER...
Mogavero over at the CoHousing produced a remarkable urban space, but only because of the exHippies who built and maintain the space...a walk through the gardens in that complex is a breath of fresh air in the intolerable mediocrity of the State complexes...
Because of the mediocrity of the State spawning really atrocious and inane Sacramento Architects and Planners, not only does the region generate abysmal urban spaces but the design of schools and other public buildings in the region is without parallel...schlock and cheap architectural junk rules the day in Sacramento...
Anonymous - Where did you get 33% less value than last year? Housing prices are down, but not 33%, unless I am misunderstanding you. That's saying if you bought a 400K house, it's worth only 268K. Also, like I say, I think the central city and suburban markets are two totally different markets right now.
I don't agree that Sacramento isn't urban. If you look at Sac at a whole region, no it is not. But as you said there are plenty of pockets of it in Midtown and midtown.
The good news is we are seeing infill housing and retail that is closing the gap between these pockets to create. Developments such as 18th and L and L Street Lofts add to the 18th and Cap area. 16th Street is coming along with the East End Gateway and Crystal Ice adding to the existing developments.
Downtown needs major work, but Midtown just needs to continue the infill we are seeing and we will see "connect the dots" happen between "things"…and add as much housing as we can. Plus, to me a big part of urbanity is having things walkable, the central city is very walkable.
As you mentioned, Portland is great. I love that city. The same with State Street in SB. Those places have long continuing stretch of retail, restuarants, galleries, and the such. that I so want in Sacramento. Sacrameneto has the pockets we talked about, but the gaps are being closed. K Street obviously being the biggest potential for that, 1along with 18th and L area, 16th Street, R Street and J Street as well. Plus the Railyards if that ever happens
Sacramento has some good open spaces and some bad ones. The good ones we have and are well positioned are places like Cesar Chavez and Fremont Park, but they need more complimentary development surrounding them. My biggest beef with open space here in Sacramento is that a lot of times it's open space for the sake of open space. There is no thought or reason behind it. i.e. East End Complex water foundion crap and the other “open space”.
I totally agree he state does screw us over with the crap they build. They create utter dead zones. Esp the East End Complex. That thing kills me. I went to the West End planning meetings and despite all the effort by the community to create something good, I think the state is going to screw that up as well.
I won’t include ALL the Greeks, I think Kolokotronis has done some good stuff down here.
lack of urbanity in sac
Don't live there, but observed for close to 20 years and I don't see an improvement...Midtown, is Midtown is Midtown...Rubicon is the Rubicon is the Rubicon...
SF is like Paris, and Seattle is probably 2 or 3 times the size and with MS and Real now over taking Boeing probably unfair to compare to Sac...
but Portland is basically the same size and have always wondered why Portland has the nice buildings, good architect and landscape architects and better urban planning in the entire area...sure Portland has three distinguished Private Universities, Reed, Portland U and Lewis and Clark which are lacking in Sac and a big Public U but so does Sac and a big Med School but so does Sac...
The only thing I can see to where Portland has a big time lead in quality of life issues and urban design is Private Enterprise. Portland has been a regional center for over a Century with the Banks, Major Industry...Logs, Aluminum, Oscilloscope was invented by Textronix in the 30s and more recently Nike moved up from Eugene...and there are plenty more...
Intel is all over the map, including Portland, Vancouver, Albuquerque...and they design at all those locations...and besides it's from Santa Clara...so it is not a Sacramento product...same with HP...
Sacramento does not have any of the benefit of Private Enterprise, which more logically moved to SF...
to counter Private Enterprise, Sacramento has the State...which has killed any sense of true urbanity comparable to what exists in the other cities up and down the Coast...
Heather Fargo touts the "Mall" stretching up to the Capitol as being the gateway to Sacrmento in the ad for 621 (a fine HOK building)...give me a break...the "mall" sucks, bigtime...nobody in their right minds goes there...
besides the small infill stuff, Sacramento is a lost cause...until the City snuffs the State...and that will never happen...
Ah, okay. Your are one of those people. It's starts to make sense now.
I've learned there are two people in Sacramento, one that consistory compares Sac to everywhere else and people who living here and enjoy it for what it is and what it is becoming. Sorry to see you fall into the first category
Sac is far from a lost cause and is already a place many many people enjoying living. I think most people will be very suprised what it looks like by the end of the decade.
don't live in sacramento
R street was cooked up by Dangberg to give himself a job, keep CADA employed, scam State money, help out Buzz, but Dangberg left before the Titanic hit the berg...
don't live in sacramento
since Jerde built K Street, he designed Del Mar Plaza, which is cool and popular and a real piece of art...makes a ton of money...while K Street Mall is now devoid of people, hurting economically, and now Dangberg wants to more "Target" right next to the Banana Republic...
don't pay SMUD bills
now Dangberg has or has tried to give those Beer Distributors from Albuquerque 500 million so "Sacramento" can have a "symbol" of urbanity...
don't live in Sacramento...
Those wild and crazy State/City dudes gave millionaires 10 million for 16th and K, 4 million for a hole in the ground on 16th, and who knows what they gave the Greeks for all that wonderful stuff Midtown...but hey, it's the Public's Money and what do they care?
I don't live in Sacramento or even close..
now just why every place else on the Coast in the last 20 years has been building cool stuff and Sacramento is still the pits? With Saca now deciding he wants on the dole? It's the crummy State and lowballers who live off that enterprise....
I don't think Maria lives in Sacramento either...
don't hold your breath about the "urbanity" in Sacramento...
what you see is what you get
" don't live in Sacramento or even close.."
Why do you even care then?
"now just why every place else on the Coast in the last 20 years has been building cool stuff
You're right. Now it's our turn. I have my opinion of how Sac will turn out, you have yours..we'll see down the road who comes closer.
My feeling is no matter what turns out, you will still have same opinion of Sac so the depate is useless
questions for you anonymous...
1) Where do you live and why do you live there?
2) What would attract private enterprise and additional creative industry to downtown Sacramento?
3) Do you find Sacramento incapable of urban growth, or are you fed up with Sacramento after being closely involved for so many years?
4) Are you Bob Thomas?
I think anonymous was abused by Sactown. I can since a lot of hate in each post.
It might be time for you to turn around and never look back.
The top photo, top of highrise was designed by John Ellis/Ed McFarlan out of a SF Architectural Firm some 15 years ago...
Sacramento has no decent City Planning, there is no imagination or creativity in evidence in the urban setting at a larger public scale...
Yup, you are right. The city planning has been really bad. It blows my mind how long it took this city to catch that mixed use housing development is the key to a real urban setting. Most stuff so far has been pieced together with no continuity in mind.
A couple outside factors that don't help the cause, as Anonymous mentioned, the state. They don't need approves to build the crap we see. It's really screws up the continuity of the streets in places they build.
Also, I think somewhat handstung on the imagination side by economics. You couldn't build a highly designed building that costs X amount more than average design when rents and sale price in Sac were weak relative to development costs until recently.
Those are only part of the problem in the past, but I think it did contribute. I think we can say that most of the work we are seeing now in the central city is of much better quality and urban design than 10 years ago. Outside of the central city, usual suburban junkitecture
1) Where do you live and why do you live there?
Timbuktu
2) What would attract private enterprise and additional creative industry to downtown Sacramento?
Like Iraq, it's more or less a hopeless case. Read the recent NY Times article on why engineers and software companies are beating a path to Portland for their coporate and engineering facilities.
3) Do you find Sacramento incapable of urban growth, or are you fed up with Sacramento after being closely involved for so many years?
The problem is the State Government and the venality and the mediocrity it breeds and encourages. Very little has been built recently in Sacramento that has not been on "the dole." Even Paragary with all of his trips to SF and LA is coming up a cropper with most of his new stuff. The answer then is yes, with the State in place as it is now, and without any type of City activity or control, one can not expect any urbanity or the growth of an urban core.
The creative types, engineers and others, coming out of the Bay Area/LA are in the area, but they do not live downtown or even close to it.
4) Are you Bob Thomas? No, but if he can get 10 million free from the State/City I would like to meet him and I would also like to meet Jay Silverheels.
In Seattle we have various neighborhoods that have department/specialty stores, food stores, coffee houses, book stores, fine and other restaurants, bars that have quite a bit of action at night and during the day they function as there own urban neighborhood outside of the central core. I am sure most cities have the same thing.
Wallingford, Greenlake, Fremont, Queen Anne, Capitol Hill, University
When I visit Sacramento which neighborhoods should I visit to experience this urban experience?
We have downtown and midtown and I'm okay with that. I don't get it. Why are both of you out to "get" the City of Sacramento? We who live here are excited about the many change that are happening now with our city. I live here because I love the location, the climate (it does not rain every day)and it's rarely humid. I love the canopy of trees through out the city and the quality of life great.
What brought this on you two? Doe's picking apart my city make you feel better about where you live?
Geesh,
Share some info from the Berkeley Seattle axis and you get attacked by the flying monkeys.
Even Baltimore has neighborhoods.
Anway, it's the BluWater Bistro, Lake Union or Green Lake and Kirkland for a hot time.
Go Dawgs!
I have not read any sharing bob... just a lot of "Sacramento has no this and Sacramento incapable of" comments.
Thanks for the constructive comments guys.
Bob - Seatlle is one of the last large cities I have yet to visit in the US. All the pictures I have seen look amazing
If you are going to be in Sac, I would check out mostly Midtown. Downtown is still a work in progress. Midtown is too, but it's got a good pulse going right now in a lot of pockets with much more on the way.
Couple of areas I would check out are around 18th and Capital Ave. Also the are around around JKL between 15th and 17th Street, starting on the corner of 16th and J. Downtown and midtown are very walkable
If you come on the 2nd Saturday of the month all the galleries are open late. Most cities have something like this on some day of the month. This would be a good way for you to check out the neighborhoods in the area by foot and take in some art and free booze. There will be a lot of people out so you can just follow the crowds. People who are new to it usually meet at 18th and L and go from there in a group.
http://midtowngrid.com/CommunityArtwalkEvents.shtml
If you are looking for a few resturants or bar recs, drop me an email and I'll give you my favorites
2) "Like Iraq, it's more or less a hopeless case. Read the recent NY Times article on why engineers and software companies are beating a path to Portland for their coporate and engineering facilities."
I had asked about Sacramento - not Iraq, New York or Portland. It's easy to site great cities and what you love about them and why they're great. What makes those cities great, is how they've addressed their individual challenges, and the unique solutions they've provided.
Obviously Portland doesn't share the same problem with state government, as it isn't the capital of Oregon. Maybe you should compare Salem with Sacramento instead?
3) "The answer then is yes, with the State in place as it is now, and without any type of City activity or control, one can not expect any urbanity or the growth of an urban core."
- I would love to agree with your assessment of hopelessness. That would make it easier for me to pack my bags and move to a more established, urban scene. But I'm one who enjoys a challenge, and I like being part of a new movement. Hundreds of thousands move to cities to leech the scene and ape the ideals that made those cities great. That's fine for them - but it's not enough for me.
"The creative types, engineers and others, coming out of the Bay Area/LA are in the area, but they do not live downtown or even close to it."
- I am a graphic designer who has lived in downtown Sacramento for the last 5 years - before that, I lived in the East Bay. I could list near 50 architectural, engineering, marketing/pr, and graphic design firms within 2 miles of where i live.
4) "Are you Bob Thomas? No, but if he can get 10 million free from the State/City I would like to meet him and I would also like to meet Jay Silverheels."
- I don''t know what your relationship with Sacramento is, but i certainly hope it's over. I also hope that in the near future, you might be able to get over it. I've never heard a person speak of a city with such hopeless discontent.
MARRS, a project that converts a former state-office building into offices, retail, and restaurants, just moved in it's first two tenants...
Read the article
1. Strange how Maloofs can sum up things rather quickly...a translation....
"Because of the nature of Sacramento, and the lack of Private Business'(meaning most of Scramento is on the Government Dole), we need certain things to make an arena work (giant parking lots and NO competition), because sports teams are a really bad business (true, true, true), and we are not in the urban design business (what's designed on the strip in Vegas is plenty good enough for Sacramento)."
2. The "guy" who claims to speak to Sacramento needs, Dangberg (who may be correct about the Arena and Jerde), is the same genius who plowed under the Mandela Gardens for upscale apartment for his developer buddies.
3. Paul Allen built the Rose Garden and when it went broke he walked away, consequently the City of Portland told him and the Jailblazers that they could take a long walk off a short pier. Portland didn't need a crummy NBA team to "define" them.
4. The great O'Neil Ford built the Riverwalk through decades of hard work and PR. That's the symbol of San Antonio, not the Spurs. What do we get along the River in Sacramento south of the great Historic District? A large trashy office building that looks like a refugee from Vegas and a crummy design for a midrise Hotel. The Ziggurat does look good at night from an airplane, but is a disaster upclose and the detailing is miserable.
5. Regardless of the PR and Hype, the Greeks built a monstrosity on 16th, that while featuring mixed use, is rather shabbily designed, tawdry (check out the AC units on the cheap balconies) and less than inspiring. Why Starbucks would go in such a cheap joint is in question.
But Hype away, after all the River DeNile runs right thru downtown.
Please point out where anyone said the Kings are the only thing that defines Sacramento? As I have said many many times, the arena is a hell of lot more than the Kings.
If you are talking about the office building at 16th and R, that was Benvenutti that built it, hense the name Benvenutti Plaza. Angelo was not allowed to build his office towers on the other side of 16th and R, that is where the R Street Corridor plan begin in the 80s in opposition to R St becoming a barren office corridor
It’s pretty obvious you are only here to piss people off. I’m am asking you from here on out if you would like to comment on this blog, please keep it on topic and keep civil
I really don’t want to have to delete posts, but it’s getting to the point where I may have to.
sorry, I just realized you are referring to The Fremont Building. While it isn't the best looking building, very functional at the street level, which is the most important in my mind.
Ok -here's my 0.02 ...Moved to Sac in 87, and i'm tired of people complaining/comparing it to other West coast/coastal cities .....Sac is not SF, Seattle , or Portland, and it doesnt claim to be ....I love Portland and Seattle, been exposed to both, and wouldnt mind living in the Northwest. Portland's downtown is my favorite..and they're ahead of many cities when it comes to urban planning, which basically tells us they've had good leadership, and most important , community support!! Residents there are very involved and take pride of their community ---We need that here..Sac is heading in the right direction -they've hired some new blood from other places (including Portland---wasnt one of the city planning guys here hired for his work he had done up North? i read an interview somewhere and i have hope in him) and hopefully, once this ball gets rolling it will be just of matter of when and not if ...We need housing housing housing ---even though i cannot afford those high rents/mortages from those newer developments, i'm all for a mix of different income levels to create a healthier resident base -look at the European capitals. Once the 700-800 blocks on K st get worked/rehav'd, it will roll down to the middle blocks, and they need to focus on J St ----years ago i thought this could be Sac's financial alley, but to my dismay it's been almost 20 yrs and not much has happened..Those projects planned for the 9th, 10th, and 11th blocks need to start going.Pronto...No more borded up windows/fronts...It's sad to see that when just a few blocks away in midtown J St alive and healthy, for the most part ....In order for that boutique hotel coming at 926 J (love the building! same as the Elks on 11th) to be succesful the surroundings need to improve -it's scary to walk around there on weekends -cant imagine what the guests will feel like...900J lofts is a major boost, but again, those other developments need to come along...After that, like LivingInUrbanSac mentioned, it's just a matter of infilling here and there, like the interesting stuff coming on O and 16th streets..So for those of you "anonymous" who have nothing to say besides what Sacramento is not, there's Craig's List to rant about it, and a much more appropiate place i may add...For the rest of us, we need to take pride of our city, and work hard to make it better...ah! zwahlen images, gorgeous pictures..Love your stuff...When is the pictorial table book coming?
Thanks Robw340... I have featured both the good and bad sides of Sacramento; I just have not posted the bad side here yet.
You know... I have been told by several people I should do a short run book and sell it to local shops. I just need to find the right place/persons to help me get started. Anybody have any ideas?
Thanks again Robw340 :)
i'm tired of people Complaining/comparing it to other West coast/coastal cities "
Amen.
You and I are on the same page, Robw340. The major projects are needed in some areas, but infill is the way to go in most.
The big projects are great for the city, but the smaller mixed use infill projects like 16th and O and 1801L that create synergy are just as good.
a almost forgot about this, but i just wanted to let anyone reading this thread know that mandella gardens which was "plowed under for upscale apartments" is being restored and improved. Though it will be split into two locations, 100 % of the land will be accounted for. And this time around, Bob, your flowers and veggies won't be toxic! yay!
Read about it here
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